So this is what my typical lunch looks like. Mind you, this is what I eat after my workouts. In it is 2lbs of white potatoes, 8oz of beef, 1/4 onion, 3 hot peppers, cooked in beef tallow. I normally eat this at 1 o' clock and it keeps me satisfied to about 7 o' clock.I have been adding calories each week. I am aiming to get to 4500 on training days as that is what has been calculated that I reach to continue to grow. I was previously only eating about 2000 cals each day which is well below even my BMR.
Got a pic of the liver. I decided that each week I am going to be having liver at least once. I will have some of this one one Saturday. I haven't had liver in a very very long time, but I think I enjoyed it. Even if I don't at first, I'm sure the vitamins and minerals will do me well as I am probably deficient in a few.
I am still waiting on the bone broth as I need to get to the meat market for some soup bones and ox tails. I saw that they fresh pork hocks and I wounder if those would be good for making broth. There is also a local place that has goat meat for sale that I might check out.
I am posting a couple of before pictures to document my "bulking" experiment. (The lighting is pretty bad and detail is horrible)
You've got to make sure to put in cow's or chicken's feet. That or some other pure source of gelatin. Gelatin is the key ingredient to aid in absorption of cooked meats. Lemon, Lime, squeezes, or white wine, or vinegar help to make the minerals more bioavailable. There's plenty of sodium in the broth but it wouldn't hurt to add in sundried sea-salt as modern animals are deficient in trace minerals due to mineral depleted soils.
ReplyDeleteCommenting on your blog like you requested. Looks like you are eating big. 2 lbs of potaoes in 1 meal, nice!
ReplyDeleteYeah Riles. I'm in. I've been killing starch lately, eating almost identical to your current diet. So far it seems that building muscle is easier than ever, even though I'm far from overfeeding right now. Just doing a pathetic short workout at home. Mostly body weight stuff, and some hiking. I feel so much better eating mostly starch than being super low-carb it can't even be described.
ReplyDeleteAnway, glad our paths crossed. Your comments on my blog have always been spot on and captivating. I'll be following the Riles-Meister on his bulking journey for sure.
That's 204g of carbohydrates in a meal. That sounds good.
ReplyDeleteJT, you seem to be pretty knowledgeable about training/bodybuilding and such. I was wondering what you knew about the subject of "nutrient timing"? Also, What Rep x Set range do you feel leads to the most hypertrophy?
ReplyDeleteOut of curiosity, what is your diet like and what type of training do you do?
Matt, thanks for stopping by. You are absolutely right about the energy thing. When I was on an all meat diet, all I wanted to do was sleep all day. It did help me lose weight, but in that weight was a good amount of lean body mass which was due to gluconeogenesis. When I stumbled on your site (a little before the Hamburglers' Metabolism Post) it completely opened my eyes to what dogmas I was following. I've been HEDing for about 9-10 months and I am now starting to see the "Big Picture".
ReplyDeleteI follow Scott Abel's training style, he is probably the most knowledgeable person out there when it comes to bodybuilding and body re-composition. The training style is much more high volume and high rep compared to what is fashionable in the BB mags now. This seems to work best for hypertrophy over the long term. I used to do low rep and lower volume type of training, and I got OK results, but the problem was that I would always end up injuring myself. Look at Dorian Yates, he was famous for getting sever injuries doing heavy HIT type of training. Another advantage to the higher volume high rep stuff is that it burns a lot of fat too, so you don't need any extra cardio.
ReplyDeleteFor my diet, I follow a high carb, moderate protein, lower fat diet. Pretty much every day I eat white rice 1.5 cup 4 times a day, with each of these meals I have either chicken breast, or low fat white fish. One meal a day is a drink made of 50 grams casein hydroisolate and 100 grams of sucrose, and some sea salt, usually flavored with some kool-aid or juice. The only fat I use is ghee mixed in with my meals, maybe a tablespoon or so a day. 3-4 times a week I will have a different type of meat, and will have a free meal about 3 times a week. Sometimes I will have potatoes or pasta or bread instead of the rice, but I have one of those asian rice cookers that keeps my rice hot and fresh 24 hours a day, so it is much more convenient. If you are trying to up your starch, I definitely recommend one, the best food investment I ever made.
I have to agree with you and Matt, I also feel SOOOO much better eating high carb diet compared to my low carb days. There is also no way i could train the way I do now being low carb either.
ReplyDeleteConcerning nutrient timing. I think it is overhyped by the industry to sell supplements, but there may be a little benefit. I take my drink while I am working out, but just because it is more convenient to have one of my meals this way. I may stop soon and just drink it at another time to see if it makes a difference. I think the most important thing concerning your nutrient timing is to just spread it out over the day to what is most convenient and easiest on your digestive system. The main thing will be what you take in over a 24 hour period.
ReplyDeleteJT: Thanks for all the info. I myself have to agree with you about the higher volume training. It has done wonders for me. If you look at people who do body weight exercises you see pretty good physiques as that lends itself to higher volume as well.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to what you eat, how many calories are you taking in right now? Also, I am having a hard time determining how much protein to take in. How many grams do you eat in an average day?
How tall/much do weigh?
I am 6'4 190 and have been eating about 160g of protein a day.
I don't know how many calories I take in right now, as I have stopped weighing my food because I am not trying to get leaner, and I am able to maintain my same leanness by just eyeballing it now. I try to get about 1gram of protein per pound of body weight. I might not need this much, but it isn't extreme, and most of the successful people out there do this at least. I am 6ft 185 and probably less than 10% bf, but I don't measure. I would like to eventually gain another 20 pounds or so, but I am working my way up slowly so i don't gain fat.
ReplyDeleteI also do Bikram yoga, which is extemely hot and physically demanding, and this burns a lot of calories. That is probably another reason I can be pretty loose with my diet right now without gaining fat.
You are probably good on the protein, but you could experiment with upping it a little to see if it makes a difference. At 6'4 you will have to up the calories to pack on the mass. Also, you need to be willing to maintain your bulk for at least 2 years, or it will not stick. You have to hold it long enough for your body to change its metabolic setpoint. I wouldn't worry about supplements and other minor details. Just make sure you take in enough protein and carbs every day.
Another huge thing that I have learned from Scott Abel is to quit with the external feedback. I have stopped paying attention to counting weight and reps. I just grab the weight that feels right and pump it out really focusing on the muscle to complete failure. I also try to maintain speed and intensity with my reps, so that I am explosive and not counting the tempo.
You should check out his stuff if you are really serious about it. He has a website,forum, and tons of free videos on youtube.
Interesting. I was just reading Vince Gironda and his recommendations are highly related to my own:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Gironda
Mainly his recommendation for liver and kelp. I believe he did a full body routine where he starts with squats. However, I prefer doing squats after upper body as it's such a tiring lift. I like doing the bench press first. I don't support his low carb scheme. I would go 50/50 carb to fat.
There's a lot of stuff I disagree with though. Sissy squats are dangerous. His bar to neck bench presses are dangerous. I prefer the Olympic Bench Press. That way there's no injury on your deltoids. With Olympic lifting and yoga stretching/warm up there should be no injury occuring. I like the heavy breathing squats Riley described to me. I feel you should use the yoga style full breathing technique with every lift including bench presses. With fighting too. I learned about it in yoga with my hatha yoga book, for lifting from Chip at bodytribe and Kevin Brown, and for fighting from the movie "Never Back Down". Dr. Oz talks about it too. He pointed out people only use a third of their lungs but with the full breaths you use the other two thirds too. It's a universal technique. Breath in all the way before each hit or strike.
Supplements wise everything should be done in balance. Creatine monohydrate, kelp, and magnesium chloride are cheap. Fermented Codliver oil and butter oil would be the two more costly supplements. But if you do sunlight and liver that should be enough. Then next up as costly are the organ supplements if you want to get all the organs in. You could also get them yourself from the store. Much better choice as they're not put through freeze drying, organ delight and testes supplement. Maybe the 200 billion mercola probiotics capsules if you don't feel you're getting in enough raw foods.
For foods I'd say 1/2-1 tblspn of freshly ground flaxseeds, organs especially liver, raw dairy, bone broth, fertile eggs, red meat of lamb, goat, cow preferably pastured grassfed, chicken skin from pastured grassfed chickens, starches such as potatoes, yams, and rice, green veggies such as celery, cabbage, jerusalem artichoke, sundried celtic seasalt, coconut meat from fresh coconut, spicy green peppers, small amounts of berries and cherries, unheated unrefined bee pollen and honey, fermented foods such as raw yogurt, kimchi, sauerkraut, and beet kvass, cinnamon, nutmeg, and vanilla extract for flavoring of raw milk/egg beverage.
Other supplies: lush soap, radiant life catalog whole house water filter, greenlife juicer, cotton clothes, special lights, air purifier, and bluetube cell phone nullifier. Iron free stainless steel cooking set. Mason Jars and vases shaped as an egg. Vases to store your milk in. Can get cheap and put in refridgerator.
That's all I have to say about that.
Make that the greenstar juicer, It's name has changed. Mainly for organ drinks and coconut milk. That way you don't have to chew the organs, you can just drink them down. Also for vegetables if you wanted to eat them raw but not cook them.
ReplyDeleteAnd finally what I had forgotten to say is that all meat and produce come from an organic or a biodynamic farm. And that's it, that just about everything. If you read that wikipedia page it'll mention that fertile eggs contain a compound that has the same benefits as dianobol. Good stuff.
ReplyDeleteHere are some more interesting article. Mits Kawashima sounds like a bright guy. You'll find these benficial:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.leviticus11.com/stip.htm
http://www.leviticus11.com/mitsp.htm
http://www.leviticus11.com/gain1.htm
I swear I heard this guy would start his workouts with leg work but I can't find it now.
Key points: A blend of dessicated liver, whole egg, and casien protein is highly effective. The casein takes 7 hours to digest so you're getting a consistant protein source throughout the day. The supplements they sell contain papain digestive aids. You could always get your own eggs, raw milk, and live from the store though.
Mike Brown likes to blend this drink together with coconut milk. I assume all the coconut water and coconut meat of the coconut were blended together. That's 60g of carbs and 155g of fat. They recommend coconut milk and say it's a great muscle builder because it's high in fat. Most bodybuilders aren't getting enough fat in their diet. You need a balance of fat and protein in the 50/50 ratio.
Raw milk and colostrum are also natural sources of human growth hormone with the Insulin Growth Factor. More powerful than any synthetic hgh on the market. Bull testes are also anabolic.
With the combination of fertile eggs, liver, hormonal glands, kelp, raw foods with their probiotics and enzymes, creatine monohydrate, raw milk or raw 6 hour colostrum, plenty of calories in fats and carbohydrates, consitant digesting protein throughout 24 hours of the day, proper breathing, sprinting, yoga, lifting slower basing your pace on your breathing, good form, one peice strength, max rep sets, full body workout, and Matt Stone's nutrient bombardment will increase your strength by 2-3 fold in a year! Imagine if the military used this stuff on their soldiers.
Let me correct myself. I wish I could edit these posts. Because of the anabolic nature of these sources of proteins I would see a problem with increasing it to 1-1.5g per a pounds of bodyweight. Maybe even as high as 2g. However, you still want a 50/50 ratio of carbs to fat. Starch is the #1 source of carb. The problem with egg protein is that it digest so fast. For muscle building you want a slow digesting source of protein. For that reason you should have red meat in higher quantities every meal. Three meals a day with red meat. In between your meals you can have a raw milk/egg/coconut milk blend. Have bone broth with your red meat meals. I came to the conclusion that you want fat every 5 hours because that's about how long it takes to absorb. You want red meat every 8 hours because it digests slowly. You can even go as far to drink the milk blend in between sleep for a night's fat source.
ReplyDeleteJT:
ReplyDeleteThanks for commenting on Scott Abel. I have just recently been checking out alot of his stuff, and he seems to be one of the few with some great training advice.
I too am trying to gain muscle while leaning out (re-composition). I am hoping that by eating ultra-low pufa & fructose, I can change my metabolic set point quicker and keep it there while still adding mass. Time will tell if this approach works, but so far everything is working well.
Right now, my goal is to eventually get up to 225 lbs with sub 9% bodyfat.
What are your thoughts on meal-frequency? Right now I have been doing 3 meals a day with about 5-6 hours between them. Is it better to do 4-6 meals a day?
Did you say you ate 1.5 cups of cooked rice 4x a day?(Just trying to get an idea of the amount of carbs you are eating)
I saw that you are a proponent of Ayurveda. Do you have any recommendations for where I can learn more about their diet traditions and philosophies?
Dan:
ReplyDeleteGreat links on the Leviticus site. I didn't realize Mike Brown is the same guy that wrote Strength of Sampson. A lot of Vince's ideas were strictly for bodybuilding purposes. He never advocated heavy weights. He was all about creating the illusion of a proportionate body. I like to mix his ideas with others. My goal is to create a physique similar to that of the great Larry Scott.
Larry Scott has great proportions. You could easily develop better proportions than him. Not to mention more size and definition. You're bigger than that guy from one of the pictures I saw of you.
ReplyDeleteI can see you putting on this kind of size myself:
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/arnold-schwarzenegger.jpg
I feel if you develop the right form and Olympic technique you'll find HIT to be the most fitting routine for you. The yoga and breathing are great too. It's an evolution of superslow. You aren't purposefully moving slow, it just happens to be that way because of your breathing. I mention Kevin Brown up there but I meant to say Mike Brown. What Vince did right were aspects of nutrition such as taking in lots of fat and slow digesting proteins throughout the day. IMO, nobody teaches HIT right. Bruce Lee is the only guy that really seemed to get it. He only injured himself with a set of good mornings because he tried to do bent over rows with higher weights. Near the end of his career he really did have a well rounded lifting routine. He did Olympic Bench Press. It was a combination of HIT, HIIT, Olympic Weightlifting, Martial arts and yoga type stretching before and after, bodybuilding, and powerlifting. Mike Mentzer helped him develop the routine but it looks far more refined than even what Mike Mentzer did.
Riles, I eat 5 times a day and most guys with good physiques eat more frequently than 3 times a day. I don't think there is anything magical about eating more frequently, but it may make it easier to digest all of your meals. Even though I am a proponent of avoiding PUFAs, I don't know if eating low PUFA fructose will change your setpoint any faster. It will mainy be about getting enough calories and protein.
ReplyDeleteI probably get about 400 grams of carbs a day, 300 from starch and 100 from sugar. About 150-180 grams of protein, and 15-30 grams of fat(ghee). And, I eat about 3 meals a week where I just eat whatever a want, so on those days the numbers could be way higher.
Concerning Ayurveda, the best way to learn about it is to go to India, but if you cant do that then you can always just get books and check out websites on it.
Why don't you post your weekly workout routine, your volume looks like it may be a little low, as well as your rep range.
This is you right? http://tinyurl.com/yjdb96x
ReplyDeleteFrom this? http://tinyurl.com/ygtb5sy
Yeah, you're looking more like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Except for the face.
You're 24. I've heard between 25 and 35 are the times you go up to your prime size. That's around the time when your rib-cage and shoulders expand to the biggest size. Arnold could have gotten a lot bigger but he didn't want to have all that bulk I'm sure. That's the difference between classic and modern bodybuilding. Though you could bulk up to massive if you wanted to. Are you sure you don't want to go down to 2% bodyfat? It's probably easier to track that than to gain or lose weight.
JT: I posted up my routine. Thanks for the info on your current diet.
ReplyDeleteDan: Yea that is me. I have been really working on broadening and deepening my chest while it is still able to be shaped.
ReplyDeleteI would like to be lean but I feel like getting to 2% would require much more dedication and calculation than I am able to put towards it right now. My goal is 225-230 6 % bodyfat.
I can't wait to see where you get to. Looks like you've got to first catch up to your original size. What you're doing is far more impressive than anyone I personally know. If I didn't have everybody and their father telling me what to do I'd be much further along. Employers are giving me trouble about it too.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the encouragement. Thats too bad that there are people that are trying to hold you back. I am really trying to reclaim my lost muscle, but I am confident I will attain it.
ReplyDeleteWhat are several good sources of zinc?
Here are some good yoga books btw:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amazon.com/Hatha-Yoga-Illustrated-Martin-Kirk/dp/0736062033/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269716011&sr=8-1
or this one, it's more for a mechanically incline person:
http://www.amazon.com/Real-Men-Yoga-Flexibility-Performance/dp/0757301126
As long as you're consuming plenty of meat sources that you've listed you're getting plenty of zinc.
Was their a certain source of zinc that you had in mind?
ReplyDeleteI was just recently reading that 90% of weight trainers are zinc deficient and that zinc is a powerful anti-aromatase and helps keep testosterone from being converted to estrogen. I was just looking for some other sources besides red meat.
ReplyDeleteIf you must oysters are by far a better source. Look them up in nutritiondata. Avoid sexual intercourse with females or ejaculation as that also depletes your zinc stores. Try to get freshwater oysters if you can. Preferably from the pacific ocean as there's no pollution over here. Raw is always better.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuN7yzSgclY
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEgVM3bzN_Y&feature=related
You have a far greater likelihood to get laid if you look like Arnold. I personally want to look more like Jay Cutler. However, I'd rather have definition and perfect flexibility such as doing splits over the size and bulk of Jay Cutler. I may develop more bone density for my weight due to intake of calcium, magnesium, minerals, and gelatin. I will walk around with 150 pounds of weights on my body too. Speed, intensity, and endurance are very important too. I like the aesthetic of Bruce Lee though he didn't have enough of a pump IMO. I like Mike Mentzer, he may be more ideal for me to use as an attainable physique. I will personally work to get down to 2% bodyfat. 6% on Arnold does look really good. Clarence Bass is 2% bodyfat in most of his pictures.
http://www.cbass.com/
I found a deal where I can get fertile grassfed pastured eggs for $3 a dozen. I'm going to see if I can talk it down to $2 a dozen. I plan to consume two dozen a day. Since I am shooting to be 265 pounds at 2% bodyfat I will experiment with 265g of protein a day.
ReplyDeleteIf I am able to get it at 2 dozen a day it would cost $112 a month. That's cheaper than buying illegal Dianobol which 2 dozen fertile eggs mimic the effects of according to Vincent Gironda.
I thought about oysters. I live in Indiana so they would have to be shipped. I could probably afford to do that once in awhile.
ReplyDeleteJay does carry a great amount of mass but I think if you maintained your flexibility that would be a great combo.
Where did you learn about bruce lee's diet? I have read somethings but some of it seemed made-up.
Mike and his brother Ray both had really great physiques.
Have you read any of clarence bass's books? I would like to understand the principles behind his diet and how he maintains such a low body fat. I know he eats a low fat whole grains diet.
Vince even had some of his pros that he worked with on 3 dozen eggs for short burst periods of time, which led to substantial growth.
http://www.mikementzer.com/blee.html
ReplyDeleteBruce's workout is in here, take a look at it. Good picture of Mike Mentzer in there too.
I read his books at Barnes and Noble. He ate chinese food. Rice, veggies, chicken, beef, fermented soy sauce, dips put on top like if you were to go to a chinese restuarant. He'd have a lot of these rice bowls throught the day. Likely 6 meals a day. He'd have 7 oz. of liver once a week.
The guy that trained me, who looked like the yoked blonde guy from Avatar, told me he also eat inbetween his sleep. I would figure three solid red meat meals with starches and three liquid raw milk meals with eggs and honey. One of the raw milk meals would be inbetween my sleep. His routine was HIT, with a combination of powerlifting, olympic weightlifting's "one piece strength", and bodybuilding. I took from Bruce Lee's routine ideas and this guy Chip Conrad from www.bodytribe.com
I got the calorie counting principals from Clarence Bass. 14cal for every pound of muscle X daily lifestyle activities. I never read his book but he does say what he does in all of his articles. He takes in enough calories, he has a solid foundation in Olympic Weightlifting which is a bonus.
Then I read this article on VO2Max which opened up my understanding of energy expenditure:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kurilla1.htm
I then use this calculator but I readjust it because it's preset at a person having 25% bodyfat. I have to redo the math to fit my personal bodyfat %.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/calories.htm
What do you know about Vince Gironda's egg recommendations and protocol? Tell me more.
ReplyDeleteI have Vince's book Unleashing the Wild Physique. In it he says that he had made some of the best gains in his life by eating 3 dozen eggs a day. He also put larry scott on 3 dozen when bulking.
ReplyDeleteVince also has a Hormone Precursor Diet, the diet consists of a special drink and meals based around red meat. The drink is made with:
12 oz. Raw Milk
12 raw fertile eggs
1 banana
He says to make between 1-3 of these drinks a day and consume for breakfast, between meals and before retiring.
I have tried it for 5 weeks once and it really did improve my strength considerably.
How exactly do a plan to get down to 2%, by recalculating your calories each week as your weight changes?
Just calculate for 2% bodyfat at a goal weight. Eat and train that way until you attain that weight. Then you don't have to wayste all that time doing your calculations. Very redundant work. You want to keep your eye on that prize. If you want to be 230 pounds at 2% bodyfat you've got to eat and train for 230 pounds at 2% bodyfat. When you program your mind at a set goal, it's far easier to attain it. That's why I said f*ck it. I'm just going to get fat and then lean up. Not the other way around. It takes a lot longer and people talk crap but it's the road less traveled. You're not aware of it but that's basicly what you did.
ReplyDeleteI see what you mean, that makes sense to me. Also you are right about if I was never as big as I was I would not be as muscular as I am now. Sometimes I just want to say "f*ck it" and get as big as possible for a whole year. But, I am a little vain and narcissistic. In the back of my mind I don't want to get "fat" again after being in that place for so many years.
ReplyDeleteYou can also search for Lee Priest, he is a modern bodybuilder that gets super fat for big gains. The only advantage is, I am sure he uses steroids to help maintain muscle while he cuts down for a contest.
IMO you only need to get fat once. The reason for doing it is that's that fastest way your body can adapt to developing more lean body mass and to broaden the body frame. You can already see that when you had more of an ectomorph build you were probably highly doubtful you could put on the size that you've achieved. I already have an idea of the route I'm going to go. Something is telling me you should get up to 240 pounds. Tell me if you're interested. I'll calculate it and we can both see what we come up with. I'm going to calculate my caloric needs for 265 pounds at 2% bodyfat. I need to see what job I can get before I go that route though. Time spent at work and activity level dramatically changes the calculations. Then I have to calculate my monthly food spending in advance. It can be expensive for a guy my size if I don't plan in advance and get everything in bulk.
ReplyDeleteBTW, were the eggs Vincent recommended small, large, or jumbo size?
I am hoping that you are correct. I have noticed that alot a formally "fat" men that get lean tend to have much bigger chest cavities.
ReplyDeleteI could see being 240, but what kind of a time frame would you put on that? That is about a 50lb gain for me.
I would be interested in seeing the calculations for that. Also, if my intake were calculated but I ended up doing more activities than taken account for would, it just take longer to build up?
My scheduling is similar to yours and I am not sure exactly what I'll be doing 3 months from now.
In a lot of my Vince texts, he refers to "large" eggs
First stick to the current calculations we developed. Once you get all of the supplements in and start that process, which is in a week, we can rework your caloric intake. I would say to just wait a month but then that's a month that went by that you could have taken advantage of.
ReplyDeleteThe process should take 6 months but your results are going to be so incredible throughout the whole process you won't even notice. Heck, you'll have the physique of 1975 Mr. Olympia Arnold Schwarzenneger or even better. It will be much less work because you'll be so effective and have everything planned out in advance you can get along with your life and continue on your daily routine with far more effectiveness. Especially if we can get you down to a full body workout three times a week 1 hours and 15 minutes a session max.
Another option is to stay at 190 pounds and lean up to 2% bodyfat at that bodyweight. Stay there and in three months if things looks promising start gaining more weight and maybe work up to 240 pounds. It will take time just to bring yourself down to 2% bodyfat anyway. You'll look big just because you're not carrying around any bodyfat.
ReplyDeleteI could see trying the 190 @ 2% would I just use the same calculations but for a bodyweight of 190?
ReplyDeleteAlso, why do you recommend not eating after a workout? I am not able to get raw milk, so that peri-workout drink is not really feasible.
You're still going to load up with the creatine monohydrate so your bodyweight will go up to 200 pounds. Keep this because it doesn't speed up your metabolism at all. You're still "190" pounds. It takes an entire month for the creatine to leave your body. Stop it in the month you want to have that leaner appearance. It will help with your leg injury, your strength gains, your anabolic muscle growth, and your recovery throughout the day. You need to drink more liquids while you are on it. Since you eat a lot of whole foods you probably won't need much extra liquid though as whole foods are high in absorbable water. Only people that consume lots of refined food need to consume extra liquids. You'll still need a peri workout drink, a drink inbetween lunch and dinner, and a drink inbetween sleep.
ReplyDeleteCan you mix coconut water with coconut meat? Blend it together. If so that could work. If you do decide to get whole fat pasteurized milk buy kefir grains to culture it so it's absorbable. They last forever. Do that if you can. Blend kefired whole fat pasteurized milk with coconut milk, eggs, and unheated unrefined honey from: http://honeypacifica.com/
You don't need to eat after work out because you have the protein, fat, and carbs digesting from the peri workout shake. You also have the slow digesting red meat protein slowly metabolizing in your gut.
We're going to have to redo your calculations. You need to give me your approximate workload and daily activities. We're going to base these figures for 190 pounds at 2% bodyfat. It's off from that right now but it's a massive improvement from your massive caloric and nutrient deficit from before.
5200cal on work/workout days
ReplyDelete4600 on work days
4000cal on workout days with no work
3300cal on weekends without work or working out
Have 50/50 fat/carbs. Have 1g of protein per a pound of bodyweight.
Unless you feel there's big details we left out this is what it should look like.
Do you plan on trying the HIIT routine I gave to you? Are you currently working out for a straight hour with weights? Do you plan to continue to work out a straight hour with weights? Would like to know as I'm going to look at the variance in calculations some more.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/calories.htm
ReplyDelete248 pounds input activity calculator 25% bodyfat is 186 pounds lean body mass
Same as 190 pounds 2% bodyfat 186.2 pounds lean body mass
workout: circuit training, including some aerobic movement with minimal rest, general 1150 75 min
Sleep: 8 hours 850 106 1 hour
Work: walking, 2.5 mph, slowly and carrying light objects less than 25 pounds for 5 hours 1772 5 hours
Day: sitting quietly, sitting smoking, listening to music (not talking or reading), watching a movie in a theater 118 1 hour
----------------------------------
Work and Workout day
Workout: 1150
Work: 1772
sleep: 850
Day: 9 3/4 hour: 1150.5
Total: 4922.5
--------------------------------------------
Work without Workout day
Work: 1772
Day: 1298 11 hours
Sleep: 850
Total: 3920
-------------------------------------
Workout without work day
Workout: 1150
Day: 1740.5 14 3/4 hours
Sleep: 850
Total: 3740.5
----------------------------------
Weekend
sleep: 850
Day: 1888
Total: 2738
For more precision I'm going to need to know what your heart rate is during your workout. You'll need a heartrate monitor for that.
ReplyDeleteYou may want to increase your caloric intake by 350 calories on days you work out. If your heartrate is lower than I expected you'll want to decrease your caloric intake by 300 on days you work out. It's always better to be over than under IMO. It won't make that much of a difference in your lean body mass anyways.
ReplyDeleteThanks for doing those caloric equations for me.
ReplyDeleteI checked my heart rate while I was working out today. It stayed right around 120-125 bpm.
Man, I had a really good pump going on today. I sure it was from the creatine and the extra I have been drinking. It feels really good.
Yeah, if your heart rate stays that way then reduce calories by 300 calories on workout days versus what I had listed in the 12:21AM post.
ReplyDeleteOk sounds good. One question, how much weight should I be gaining each week or will I stay at 190 and just recomposition the entire time?
ReplyDeleteYou might first shift up in weight and then down in weight and finally recomposition at 190 pounds. Your strength gains are going to be so huge I doubt you'd put on much if any fat. Expect a 10 pound weight gain from the creatine once you're done with your loading phase. This does not at all factor in with your caloric expenditure. While you're on creatine always take 10 pounds of your weight to determine your actual body weight excluding the added water weight from creatine loading.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds reasonable. When you get a chance you should check out these articles by Kelly Baggett http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/bodybuilding.html . He seems to think similar to your ideas.
ReplyDeleteAlso, how big of a deal is it to eat like say 60/40 fat/carbs? I seem to favor carbs more than fats.
*I meant to say 60% carbs 40% fat
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think of this Mike Mentzer routine that was sent to this guy? http://ironage.us/yabbse/index.php/topic,21062.0.html
ReplyDeleteOr this "ideal routine" by Arthur Jones http://ironage.us/yabbse/index.php/topic,21948.0.html
Why do you feel my views are related to the guy in the link above? I'll browse around to see what you mean but I want to know what I should be looking for in terms of similarity between me and him?
ReplyDeleteI personally liked the routine Mike Mentzer gave to Bruce Lee. Though I would have changed the set scheme a little bit which I have. I don't like Mike's routine in that post. Bruce's works in conjunction with my ideology of olympic weightliftng, powerlifting, bodybuilding, mixed martial arts, plyometrics, ironman, shadow boxing, and HIIT HIT cross training.
I now believe the ratio should be 25/37.5/37.5 protein/fat/carbs for a raw food diet on workout days. The ratio for a cooked food diet should be 10/45/45 protein/fat/carb on workout days. On non workout days the ratio should be 25/25/50 protein/carbs/fat for raw food. For cooked food on non workout days it should be 10/25/65 protein/carb/fat.
High protein on a cooked food diet doesn't work unless you're taking steroids. Raw food with high protein from dairy, eggs, organs, glands, and red meat may be good choices because there's naturally occuring hormones present that are destroyed in cooking. Like steroids they have the ability to increase the level of protein synthesis. Too bad I don't know any concrete science to back this up. It's just one of those things I have picked up on after investigating effective approaches to muscle building.
Anybody here want to share a further understanding of this? Otherwise on a cooked food diet you can only synthesize 0.36g of protein per a pound of bodyweight. Share some science. Like what are the different hormonal and anabolic effects of the different raw protein sources other than what is generated by the amino acids. Pituitary, human growth hormone, adrenals, testes, the different raw protein sources, and their different effects with our physical development with effective strategies for effective physical growth.
I'm going to go with what Vince Gironda suggests that nutrition is 80% of getting results from weightlifting. He eats raw meat sources and I can see why.
Recovery may be more based on nutrition than any other factor. The reason why rest time between each set and recovery time before the next workout vary so much is due to nutrition. After looking at Matt Stone's nutrient bombardment it's very apparent most people are deficient in calories and nutrients. Many of these play a role in recovery. If I had the resources I'd put it to the test right now. Maybe you really only need a minute rest in between each set. For 1 rep max it's popularly taught to wait 5 minutes in between each set. However, with proper breathing, movement, and nutrition maybe only one minute is required. Maybe we could work out everyday of the week with raw food nutrition. Can't say for sure until I apply the optimal diet I have created. Other than Vince Gironda all the successful bodybuilders of that day ate mostly cooked food and took synthetic steroids. Weightlifting itself should only be 20-30 minutes long. My routine is HIIT and involves working on different strengths other than muscular hypertrophy. The weightlifting iself is only 20-30 minutes anyway.
All you need is one set for each group of muscle fibers. You only need to stick to compound exercises rather than isolation exercises.
It's taking awhile to get approved for Arthur Jones download. Can you send it to my e-mail?
Genetics may not be as big a limiting factor as we are taught to believe. Lifestyle, belief system, flexibility, caloric intake, and nutrition are the factors to be considered.
ReplyDeleteI was tiny as a kid. I've been an ectomorph, mesomorph, and an endomorph. I looked twice as small as other guys that make excuses that their genetics are holding them back.
I have found the people that don't get results are always using faulty strategies. Even enlightened men are fools. Weightlifting involves more knowledge and wisdom than what people give it credit for. The reason for the stereotype that weightlifting is mindless is that there are successful people that do it that are mindless. The reason they are so succesful is that thinking burns calories. Because they don't think they burn less calories and so they pack on a lot more size.
Let me see, I was 235 pounds at 16, 140 pounds at 17, 175 pounds at 18, and am now 290 pounds at 25. I was really skinny as a kid but had a fast metabolism. So your build is completely dependant on your caloric intake and the types/intensities of activities that you do.
You look like you went through the same phases of skinny, muscular, and fat as I did. My pictures would shock you. I've personally met one other person that's experienced this too in his life.
What do you think of them apples?
I quickly browsed through that guy's articles above. -Kelly
ReplyDeleteI will have to investigate him further.
What I always say is that when you understand the science behind weightlifting, nutrition, movement, and exercise physiology you realize everybody is fundamentally the same. I use the Weston A. Price philosophy that when someone varies in their body's performance it's because of a deficiency. You should take a diagnostic approach to yourself when you are a fitness and health enthusiast. All cars are fundamentally the same, and so are humans. However, humans are far more similar to eachother versus cars. The human body has the ability to regenerate itself, cars don't. So if someone is different it's a sign of something. Things aren't just the way they are. That's the best I can describe it. Metabolism is based on health, hormones, activity, and lean bodymass. That's it, really.
All this metabolic type stuff and genetics arguments are very limited. I will even go as far to say that Arthur Jones could have been yoked but he too had a faulty belief system. I don't know what that is with his high IQ. Either you get it or you don't. Which is strange because he did train guys to obtain success. He did screw up with Arnold Schwarzenegger. I wish I could pick a perfect role model that I could match my ideology with but I can't. I would have to say a blend of Bruce Lee, Mike Brown, and Vincent Gironda. There's just so many good points to take from every person though. It's hard to find a truly fundamental and well rounded person in weight training. My goal has been to combine the best elements from all systems and I think I'm fairly close to being complete with that quest.
First off, I am not doubting what you are saying I am just trying to dig in and accept it, as it is completely unorthodox to what I have learned previously.
ReplyDeleteYou should search about Armand Tanny(bodybuilder from the 50's) he was completely raw eater. "One important Muscle Beach raw food enthusiast was Armand Tanny. Originally a weightlifter, Armand had a fantastic physique and the strength to qualify him for the wrestling circuit. He visited the Hawaiian Islands just after the Second World War and came away with a lasting impression of the Samoans. "They ate everything raw," he noted. "You name it, fish, meat, beetles--everything! They were so strong and healthy." On his return to the US, he became interested in the work of Weston A. Price, stating that Price’s book Nutrition And Physical Degeneration served as his Bible.
In 1948 he shut off his stove and ate just about everything raw from then on--tuna, beef, liver, lobster, oysters, clams, nuts, seeds, fruits and vegetables. Armand recalls wading out into the surf along the Santa Monica Pier and using his feet to kick up 6- to 7-inch Pismo clams, smashing them together to get at the pink and white flesh. Armand also took brewer’s yeast, desiccated liver, yogurt, black strap molasses and wheat germ oil, all recommendations of Gaylord Hauser, a nutritional guru of the era. Hauser also recommended fish liver oil, but Tanny felt he was getting plenty from all the raw fish he was consuming.
Armand credited his 1950 Mr. USA and the Pro Mr. America titles to his raw meat diet. In the 1950s, he helped his brother Vic in the gym business and appeared in a Mae West act. His bodybuilding articles appeared prominently in bodybuilding publications for the remainder of the century, thus providing a link to Weston Price during the decade of the 50s"
With your macro nutrient suggestions, there is just no way I would be able to track them and consume them with such detail.
I remember you mentioning on the health skeptics board to use brown rice syrup if raw milk is not available. What are your ideas behind this.
I think with Bruce Lee's training of 2 x 8 that it would be a pretty good strength builder but not necessarily size builder. Not enough hypertrophy. That is my only worry about it.
I came across an article of Lyle McDonalds awhile ago: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/
ReplyDeleteGuys like Arthur Jones recommended a high carbohydrate diet. He was also a hardgainer...I wonder why. Lyle says 25% of carbs are dissipated into nothing in order to metabolize the other 2/3rds into fat. So you've got to buy 25% more carbs on a high carb diet. Unless you're running or doing another related high endurance activity, your body burns 50% of it's energy from fat and the other 50% of it's energy from carbs. If you go into ketosis it will switch to glucagon rather than insulin. In ketosis on average you can burn between 4-20% of your energy as carbs or ketones with the rest of the energy being derived from free fatty acids. After varying periods of adaption you only burn a fraction of your energy as ketones and the rest of your fuel is derived from free fatty acids. This is economical on non workout days because fat is such a cheap source of energy to be used. It taxes your immune system when you take in such a high level of carbs. Fat is a far higher carrier of mitochondria and ATP. You'll feel more of an energy boost with a proportionate fat intake.
In order to build excellent hypertrophy you must learn how to build overall stength. Many professionals proport myths that you can only build one or the other. It's not true. In fact, as a powerlifting or olympic lifter you want hypertrophy as the added muscle mass protects your joints and cartilage from injury. Olympic lifters lacking in hypertrophy always eventually get injured. flexibility is also very important. Bodybuilders appreciated Bruce Lee's bodybuilding elements. Not only physically, but mentally Bruce Lee was way ahead of the game. He had a smaller frame so it was unlikely bulk would have looked good on him. I still challenge that had he gone on a highly anabolic natural diet he would have become massively built. Though that does take much time. He had great aesthetic elements to his physique that were ahead of his time.
It's good to bring yourself down to 2% bodyfat because even at a lighter weight you still appear huge. Once you get down to 2% once you know the next time you get there it would be a lot easier. It just so happens that in order to get down that far you have to build a massive load of strength with the development of type 1 and type 2 fast twitch muscle fibers. Usable strength and hypertrophy work hand in hand. I knew a guy that was 5'6", 150 pounds, and could bench press 325 pounds. With balance not only will you get results, but each session will be more enjoyable rather than feeling like you're barely surviving through it.
I challenge somebody who has a weakness to work through it. Improvise with a movement to make it work. So if you're tall and form is an issue slowly work on it to improve it. There's several strategies to balance out the myriad of perceived weaknesses a person has. In other words take a diagnostic approach to lifting.
If you give me the types of meats you eat and the fat trim measurements I can tell you how much protein and fat are in it per an ounce. I demonstrated to someone on a yahoogroup how many calories were in a potato, coconut, cheese, milk, etc. It's easier to track as long as you stick to a fundamental set of foods which of course you do. I don't count veggie calories because they're way too light. Eggs, dairy, coconut, organs/glands/meats, animal fats, starches such as rice and potatoes, unheated honey and bee pollen. Those are the basic foods to stick to. Which is kind of what you're doing right now. I just google such the foods and put in nutrition data so I'll get the nutrition data database on the google search results. A high fat day is very easy to track. The meat from a medium sized coconut is 60g of carbs, and 155g of fat. I don't count protein from non animal sources. I don't factor in fiber either.
ReplyDeleteBrown rice syrup should work. Blend it with coconut meat and heavy whipping cream. White rice syrup is even better if you can find it as that should have a better flavor to it. Or just blend in cooked white rice. Add stevia and vanilla extract for flavor. Nutmeg to heighten the senses. Add in eggs for a protein source.
You could also steam white rice and then mix in milk with it. Let the milk soak into the white rice. Then blend it into a shake. Liquify the white rice. Try to get a hold of sweet white rice. That sounds delicious. Add in some unheated honey to the final drink if you can. Consider adding in some cultures or enzymes to aid in the digestion of the cooked stuff in this beverage before consuming. Mike brown had some interesting suggestions on that link I gave you way up there in this comments thread.
ReplyDelete1.5g of protein per a pound of bodyweight sounds like the highest amount you could possibly want to go. Are there any articles that state you want to go even higher than that? Even that might be excessive but it's something I'll have to experiment with. I'd like to see some articles on the logic behind it. In many ways I do think like Arthur Jones...
ReplyDeleteEven Kelly pointed out that raw food cultures took in more protein. after reading a little bit about Vince Gironda and earlier studies of anabolic steroid usage I have come to the conclusion your body can synthesize more protein under tha conditions of A) take steroids or B) consume raw foods that produce the same effects as steroids.
Arthur Jone's routine has too many max lift sets and exercises. I don't care for the use of machines he has in it. Like I said, the max weightlifting part of any routine shouldn't go over 30 minutes. Heck, let's cut that off to 20 minutes. You can do other weight related exercises, but the "max" sets shouldn't go over 20 minutes. You'll have a very difficult time recovering from that. My routine has two max rep sets that involve weights. The intensity is always the same and is built around complete breathes rather than speed intervals. Keeping the awareness of using all the muscles togetheer in balance. I involve calisthenics, conditioning lifts, sprinting, mobility training, and plyometics for the strengths they offer. For this reason I really do like Bruce Lee's routine. Though I would change the rep and set scheme. It's the most well rounded workout routine I have ever come across, ever. I like Clarence Bass too. Dave Draper looks great, and has a different type of aesthetic appeal than those two. Strengths from both groups of ideologies should be combined for best results.
Keep in mind that many of the extra lifts don't have to be utilized every routine unless need be. Since it's HIIT they don't have to be done with max intensity. Instead you work on developing strengths in different areas with the same exercise. In this way the routine never gets stale. Everything's mapped out so everything should run smoothly. A lot of the exercises in there should take longer than a minute. Others maybe only 10 or 20 seconds. The two types of exercises that will take over 15 minutes are the max weight lifts and the yoga/stretching/mobility training.
Thanks for sharing with me those articles, I really liked Kelly's stuff. Though I don't agree with everything that he says he does indeed have a lot of interesting insights. Now he needs to touch up on Bruce Lee. Flexibility and yoga aren't something really covered by bodybuilding even though they are so important.
I want to produce a superman like Arthur Jones had wanted to under the same conditions. Whether I do it with myself or someone else depends on what oppurtunities open up for that to take place.
I really do need to check out all the books you've been recommending. Just so many.
I look forward to the next article that you post.
You are constantly causing my to challenge my previously held beliefs, haha. But that is good.
ReplyDeleteI found this article that seems to support your idea of increasing strength rather than volume in a natural trainer: http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showpost.php?p=88542&postcount=3
http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showpost.php?p=88543&postcount=4
I also found a really good routine similar to your modified routine that you emailed me. It seems to have been really successful for Martin Berkhan @ www.leangains.blogspot.com. I will post it up and get your opinion but I am sure that you will approve it.
As for the greater protein intake and raw versus cooked. I think that a person may require more protein if they are eating it raw as it may not be as bio-available in some cases as in its cooked form. Maybe that is why on the Primal Diet AV suggests 3 lbs or more of raw meat.
My routine was customized to fit anybody and everybody. Weights alone aren't going to get you that lean ripped physique. Just look at guys like Arnold, who even in Pumping Iron shows us that he did crosstraining. Of all the things he practiced ballerina lessons. If you missed working a part of the body in the weights you will hit it in sprinting or plyometrics. The only two activities you want to go 100% "I want to die" intensity on are sprinting and max weight lifting. Even the weightlifting isn't going to be painful unless you're doing something wrong. With the breathing patterns I shared weightlifting will be easier than ever. That just leaves sprinting. Yes, the only activity that should leave you feeling like you went 100% to the brink of death in this routine is that one full sprint. Because with sprinting you don't get the oppurtunity to breathe in and out fully. It truly is the most intense anaerobic movement. Weightlifting is an over 50% aerobic movement. Sprinting is 100% anaerobic movement.
ReplyDeleteAerobic means with air and anaerobic means without air. Practice sprinting and a HIT routine will be much easier to apply. If the only way to sprint is to stop lifting then do that. Sprint 3 times a week. Just one all out effort sprint. Plyometrics should be another top priority for you. The body prefers fat as it's fuel during an aerobic movement and it prefers carbs as fuel during an anaerobic movement. That's why measuring VO2Max is so integral to crosstraining.
Now this sounds all good and all but is it effective for a tall person. We can't know that until a tall person applies it. What you had practiced with that routine before is tried and proven. Even the Arthur Jones routine you shared is probably something you've already had some experience with. I'm going to send you some slides from the Weston A. Price Foundation on info with fats. That and the benefits of bone broth.
Whatever you do, always tailor your plan to work for you. I just hope the routine I created will be 100% combatible with you. Because if that's the case it should work with anyone. You're the most difficult type of person to taylor a routine for. Tall people have always been the most difficult.
Imagine that. A universal routine that is not only the most optimal, but works for every type of striving athlete.
I have only seen information that says raw eggs aren't 100% absorbable and the protein is only 60% absorbable. However, eggs, even cooked, contain an enzyme inhibitor avidin that ruins the absorption of it's proteins. However, the avidin is absent in fertile eggs. Vincent Gironda recommended raw fertile eggs. The only other option if you can't get fertile eggs is to seperate the white from the yoke and then to throw the white away or cook it while having the uoke raw. Avidin is in the egg white.
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, Dr. Arthur Jones visited me from beyond the grave. I got his attention when I said some things about his health status near the end of his life. I kinda feel bad of what I said but I tend to be harsh due to lack of sleep. Then he made it known he was visiting when I revealed that Casey Viator did steroids in his teens.
ReplyDeleteNow I'm kinda in a "who's penis is bigger" challenge. If I can get a tall guy to find optimal success with a HIT routine, even if it is also HIIT, and develop a physique superior to Arnold Schwarzenegger I truly could say I have a bigger schlong than any of those other Hitters.
Getting a taller guy to find success with HIT is an act greater than Jesus walking on water. Literally.
Here are some of my thoughts after reading body recomposition thread.
ReplyDeleteEnhanced athletes and regular athletes would do great with sprints and plyometrics. Plyometrics helps with developing regions that weren't touched with weights. If the enhanced athlete or even the regular athlete feel they might overdo it then they should do calisthenics instead of lifting. Calisthenics, yoga, sprinting, and plyometrics. Then when the individual develops a greater connection with their body and what they can do with it convert to a HIT routine with all the HIIT elements. I am in debate whether or not running is useful at all. If you feel it is then run at a seperate time of the day away from your routine. Never run for the purpose of losing weight. Run for the purpose of increasing your body's threshold. Sprinting is far more useful for a bodybuilder anyway.
<<<- TECHNICALLY enhanced lifters are able to train each muscle group more often because of the increased protein synthesis and glycogen storage. In other words the muscles recover faster from training.>>>
If you sprint you can increase your capacity to store glycogen in 3 fold the time. Sprinting will increase your ability to put on muscle gains dramatically. If you sprint there is no need for running at all. It only takes one full sprint every other day.
<<<- although their muscles recover faster their tendons do not. This, once again, increase the risk of injuries because as time goes by the muscles will get stronger while the tendons get progressively (and proportionally) weaker.>>>
This is where my routine comes in. You do the breathing so you can work out all the muscles and tendons evenly. If you feel pain you should go lighter weight and focus on form. You do bodyweight exercises like bear crawls so you can again work out the muscle evenly. Even with steroids you eventually get the body to catch up. People who don't 'roid have the same exact problems. You must always evenly work out all the muscle groups, joints, and cartilage. That's where the bone broth and magnesium oil come in too. These also assist anybody in developing their various bodyparts. Eggs are high in sulfur which also aids in cartilage development.
Even during calisthenics practice the breathing technique as you do it.
ReplyDelete'Roiders and non 'roiders alike will love bear and gorilla crawls. Weightless as much depth as possible Leg lunges are another great exercise to practice in order to increase the strength of the small ligaments. Another exercise is to drag your body across the floor with your palms. Drag your legs too. Do explosively quick and rapid movements with these exercises too. Same with kicks and punches.
ReplyDeleteThey then both catch up their small ligaments with their large ligaments.
I do lunges regularly. I like to do them with an empty barbell on my back
ReplyDeleteIn one of the articles I came across, can't find it now, likely from Kelly Baggett. He reported studies that had shown people that did steroids in a month where they weren't working out got twice the solid mass gains as those that took steroids and worked out for that month. I can attest to this because I took legal anabolic steroids and didn't work out. I've had three months worth so far in the past year. I previously weight 235 before taking them and now weigh 290. I might actually be under 20% bodyfat. Atleast according to bodymass index chart I used.
ReplyDeleteI think I remember reading that too. What type of cycle did you run? Did you have to use a PCT(estrogen blocker) afterwards?
ReplyDeleteI just ate lots of food, creatine monohydrate, and the anabolic steroid both time. The first time it was trenbolone clone, Myogenix Spawn. I used that for 2 months out of last year. This year I used nanodrol. It's a mix of dianobol and decabol I believe. No estrogen blocker except for maybe what was contained in the supplement itself. Maybe you can tell me what this supplement is?
ReplyDeleteNanodrol:
13-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-2,
5(10)-dien-17-one 15mg
2a 17a Dimethyl 17a
Hydroxy 5a Etiocholan 3-one 15mg Take 1 capsule 3 times a day 6 hours apart from each
You know what, the nanodrol is probably decabol and anadrol. No dianabol.
ReplyDeletehttp://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=716711
ReplyDeletehttp://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=7121951
Interesting article on one of the compounds. It's an estrogen blocker itself.
2a,17a-dimethyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstan-3-one is a derivative of
Drostanolon which is the 2-methylated form of DHT, so it has typically
been used for reducing body-fat and water retention, while increasing
muscle hardness and density, as it cannot form estrogen.
As such, there should be no estrogen conversion with this compound,
because it's 5a-reduced and A-ring alkylated on top of that. Also, the
parent compound is used exclusively as an anti-neoplastic for metastatic
breast cancer, so it's a strong anti-e with mild diuretic effects.
Here's the article that shows that people who aren't active in the month that do steroids develop twice the lean body mass as those that are active and take steroids during that month.
ReplyDeletehttp://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/335/1/1
It makes sense. When boys go through puberty they generally add muscle mass without working out, strictly hormones and nutrition.
ReplyDeleteYou know what? The guys that took the testosterone had greater growth in both groups than the guys that didn't take it and exercise/no exercise. However, of both testoserone groups, the guys that exercised had more development of fat free lean body mass.
ReplyDeleteI have huge stretch marks on my body from when I lifted weights as a teenager. Everytime I'd complete a workout I would walk away with extra stretch marks on my back, belly, and shoulders. Crazey!
ReplyDeleteJay Cutler is 5'9" too. He bulks up to 310 and then cuts down to 265 pounds at 2% bodyfat. Usually you don't come close to your real potential in bodybuilding until you are over 25 years of age.
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